Discussion Post: 2x09 "The General" | 2x10 "Chinatown"

[wendelah1]

I'm putting up the post early because I'll still be at my mother's house when the episode begins airing. (Happy Mother's Day if you're celebrating.)

This is the discussion post for episode 2x09, "The General" and 2x10, "Chinatown." It is meant for folks who are watching the show on the U.S. schedule, but you should feel free to join in any time after you've seen the episode. On Global, the episodes are airing on separate days, but since no one objected, I'm combining both episodes into one post.

Air Date: May 6, 2018 in the U.S.
"The General"
Written by: Matt Whitney
Directed by: John Showalter
"Chinatown"
Written by: Tom Smuts and Nancy Baird
Directed by: Greg Beeman

I've already posted the NBC promo so how about something different? This is the Wondercon appearance of Goran Visnjic. It was a nice surprise to see him alone because when he's in a panel with the rest of the cast, he never gets a word in edgewise.

Watch on YouTube

Pilot, Thinker, Soldier, Spy: The Epic “Timeless” Season Finale Twofer | The heroes help Harriet Tubman raid the Confederacy before leaving their heart in San Francisco (Smithsonian Magazine)
Timeless ends its season with a finale so good, it can't be cancelled… right? (AV Club)
Timeless Needs to Be Renewed After Breaking Our Hearts and Brains (TV Guide)
'Timeless' Star Abigail Spencer Explains the Shocking Finale Reveal (Exclusive) (ET online)

Timeless recap: Bloodshed and betrayal in an explosive two-part season finale (EW)
Timeless Season-Finale Recap: ’Til Death Do Us Part (Vulture)
Timeless EP on Finale Twist, [Spoiler]'s Fate, Flynn's 'Deep Feelings' for Lucy (TVLine)
Timeless Finale Recap: Should Shows On The Cancellation Bubble Do Season-Ending Cliffhangers? (Uproxx)
‘Timeless’ Season Finale: Death Of Major Character Teases New Timeline As NBC Drama Awaits Its Fate (Deadline Hollywood)
'Timeless,' Awaiting Renewal, Ends Season 2 With Massive Cliffhanger Tell us something we don't already know! (Hollywood Reporter)
Timeless co-creator explains finale shockers — and plans for season 3 (EW)

Remember, if you can, watch in real time, tweet in real time, etc. If you're recording the episode to watch later, it doesn't count in the ratings and it won't help our cause. In that case, watch On Demand, or on Hulu, or at the NBC website as soon as you can. Those are the numbers that matter to the network because those are the numbers that matter to their advertisers. NBC has already announced their Fall 2018 schedule and needless to say, we are not on it! This is our last chance to show the network that we want a third season. Let's get those numbers up!

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Comments

[tinny]

Not gonna say much because it's late... but the first part was boring and formulaic and representative of the whole season. I was wishing for it to be over.

The second part was hilariously nonsensical - I laughed so hard at Emma just shooting Carol and Keynes. Why don't villains shoot people like that all the time? After that, I was just going "what?" the rest of the time. Lucy vs. Emma was terrible and I am not going to think about it any longer. I am angry at them killing Rufus, permanent or not. Kill the black man, why don't you. It's tradition.

Oh yeah, and Jessica being Rittenhouse was still the worst way to go.

wendelah, you were so right about them trying to write the worst possible outcome for all the characters. I'm sorry you were right.

(Also, sorry not sorry, the only way to deal with this season is not to take it seriously, so in the end I started focusing on the stupid love triangle again. I admit I am so very much into Flynn and Wyatt nagging each other, and Flynn hopelessly trying to come on to Lucy. I hope the garbage fire ot3 authors will keep writing for a long time. :) That's pretty much the hope with which I am walking away from this season. Staying inside canon is not an option.)

[wendelah1]

I'm sorry I was right, too.

I didn't think "The General" was boring, exactly, but it was formulaic, for sure. It was disappointing because from the promo I'd expected something entirely different. I had thought we'd find out that Rittenhouse had somehow already changed the course of the war, by say interfering with the election and having General McClellan win instead of Lincoln getting a second term. McClellan ran on an antiwar platform and there was a lot of antiwar sentiment in the North. The election was close. If McClellan had become President, the North would have conceded and the South would have declared victory. Lucy's line from "Chinatown," "No matter how bad it gets, we still have each other," would have been a great start to a Civil War AU dystopia--which is what I was hoping we'd see in "Chinatown." Instead, we got everything I didn't want: Jiya's vision came true, Jessica turned out to be hard-core Rittenhouse, and pregnant with Wyatt's baby. Then I had to listen to Wyatt declare that he was in love with Lucy--this after everything he'd done, including preventing Flynn from taking Jessica out. Thanks a heap, guy.

I couldn't object to Lucy wanting to kill Emma. Emma despises Lucy. Emma wanted to kill her and she did kill Lucy's mother. Not only that, Emma did everything in her power to make sure that Lucy would never get her sister back (I'm not sure it's all that easy but her intent was clear) and if there is anything that Lucy truly wants at the end of this mess, it's not Wyatt, and it's not Flynn--it's her sister. Lucy deserves to get her sister back. Period.

Frankly, at this point I don't give a damn which dude she ends up with because I don't think either of them deserve her. Over and over again, Wyatt keeps choosing his wife--and I get why he does--he's got a long history with Jessica, and is still carrying around a boatload of guilt about her death seven years ago. I believe he loves Lucy--he just doesn't love her enough to choose her over his wife. Garcia Flynn has his own family tragedy to weigh him down and isn't what I would call a safe bet.

I just want Lucy to be happy.

As for Rufus dying, thematically, there is no rhyme or reason for it. Jiya saved him, which proved to me that her visions don't always come true. Rufus was shot by Emma who figured nowhere in the vision. Honestly, if they hadn't stood around fighting about it, they all might have gotten away safely. "He who hesitates is lost"!

Rufus hasn't done anything wrong--if anyone deserved to die at the end of the season, I'd nominate Wyatt. He dragged Jessica back to the bunker without so much as a by-your-leave, he behaved like an ass toward Lucy, he picked stupid fights with Flynn, and he betrayed the team, twice, for Jessica's sake. He got Jessica pregnant with a Rittenhouse baby! WTF! These people are adults, they should have acted like adults and used birth control or avoided PIV sex acts, for God's sake. Wyatt could use a redemption arc. Instead, he gets to waltz in with Future!Lucy, looking like a refugee from the Firefly universe. UGH. I hate these writers.

"Let's go save Rufus!" Okay, fine. If you think it's that easy, what do you need us for? Go save him already. And while you're at it, save Flynn's family, save Amy, and prevent Jessica from turning into a Rittenhouse stooge. Keep Emma from being recruited by Rittenhouse. Or convince Flynn to leave her in her cabin in the woods.

There were things I liked but I'm having a hard time recalling what they are. I'm gonna get to work on my crack!fic crossover.

[earthspirits]

I hated that they killed Rufus - even if only temporarily. I've always considered him the heart of the time team. It would have been more original to have "killed" Wyatt - and then have to go on a mission to bring him back, with Flynn helping (even if reluctantly, and he'd probably only do so for Lucy's sake).

Although I must admit that it was great the way Emma just blew away Carol and Keynes, especially as I detest both characters. Emma is definitely waaay more bad-ass as a villain then those two.

There were things I liked about both parts of the finale, but lots I didn't. The whole sub-plot with Wyatt ping ponging between Lucy and Jessica was especially irksome. He even (accidentally) punched her when he was attacking Flynn. To add insult to injury, Wyatt also managed to interrupt Flynn, just as he was about to make a heart-felt declaration to Lucy. Unforgivable. That and Wyatt's cocky little appearance in the alternate Lifeboat, which did zero for me. Meh.

Lucy deserves to be respected - and that means not being guilt-tripped, lectured, "warned", etc. by Wyatt, when she wants space, or shows an interest in another man (in this case, Flynn). Whoever she eventually chooses (or if she prefers to choose no one) needs to be entirely her own decision. And she doesn't need to justify herself to anyone either.

But I truly love Flynn, with all his flaws - and Goran Visnic is one of my all time fave actors. So - despite the flaws of the finale, I'm still hoping they get renewed for S3. And - if they do get renewed, that the writers do a better job next season, with plot and character development.

As for going non-canon - yeah, that's definitely why I'm writing Timeless fan fic in my spare time (although I really ought to just concentrate on the original book I'm writing. But writing fan fic is a guilty pleasure. *shrug*). That said, I find it fun to do my own spin on the Timeless characters.

[wendelah1]

I loved Goran Višnjić in ER so I was thrilled to see him back on NBC. He's definitely the reason I tuned in initially. I don't care for the way his character was written last season, though I do think he had a lot of chemistry in his scenes with Abigail Spencer.

Wyatt didn't intend to interrupt Flynn and Lucy, although I don't think he would have hesitated to do so.

The second lifeboat appearance in the bunker makes no sense. If they think they can save Rufus--well, go ahead, guys. Save him. Just do it. There's no good reason to involve their earlier selves at all that I can see. It's just a plot contrivance to provide hope while still killing off a major character.

I'm not happy with the finale but I still love the characters and the history lessons. I still want a renewal.

[earthspirits]

I agree about that twist ending - it really made zero sense. Why do we need "doubles" of our characters? As they say on Doctor Who, it's all awfully "timey wimey". And if they're going to save Rufus, then just do it, without the pep talk. Will our usual team be zooming off in the "original" Lifeboat, or crowding into the alt one with the doubles? (sounds like a travel nightmare).

I also agree with you that if they're going to save Rufus, why not also save the other folks and loved ones?

Abigail Spencer recently gave an interview wherein she mentioned that the writers had "always" planned that twist ending, with the future folks coming back in time to their "current" versions (although I don't know if I really buy that). That said, I personally found the ending to be rather gimmicky (especially for a finale where we don't yet know if the series is going to be renewed).

I'd far rather see our heroes in our "present" era working feverishly together, despite their differences, to bring Rufus back to life (although I still wish the writers hadn't used him for this particular plot development). I'd especially love to see some focus on Mason and Jiya, allied with their scientific and tech knowledge, and love of Rufus, come up with a way to save him.

That said, one thing the writers did get right this season is making Flynn part of the time team, and working with the group, instead of against them. Besides, he brings welcome snark and edge to the team.

But yeah - still really hoping for that renewal.

[wendelah1]

That said, one thing the writers did get right this season is making Flynn part of the time team, and working with the group, instead of against them. Besides, he brings welcome snark and edge to the team.

Last season, they were working against Flynn. He had a plan--based on Lucy's diary--to bring down Rittenhouse. They're on the same side now, but don't you think it's odd that they aren't using what Flynn knows from the diary? I know they don't have it anymore but my impression is that he read it cover to cover and knows the content pretty damn thoroughly.

I don't like the sleeper agent plot because it makes no sense AT ALL. You can't destroy the American auto industry by killing a bunch of auto executives at a race car track, plus why would Rittenhuse want to do it? You can't destroy the counter culture by murdering one blues musician, no matter how influential. Murdering one suffragist wouldn't mean women wouldn't get the right to vote--especially since President Wilson was already in favor of women's suffrage. One plantation raid more or less wouldn't change the course of the Civil War. And why would it further Rittenhouse's aims to divide the country? I would like to have heard someone give an explanation. Rittenhouse needs a better political strategist and a better historian.

[earthspirits]

Yeah, my husband and I have talked about that with each other (ie making better use of Lucy's journal). In a "real life" situation, the team would want all the intell from that journal, and it would be more realistic that Flynn would discuss in depth with Lucy. Doubtless the writers would use some sort of plot device that future Lucy told Flynn not to really discuss with anyone, even her, for "timey wimey" reasons. Or something like that.

The sleeper agents are also plot devices, and i agree, seem rather unlikely. The plot device of fate has a way of "course correcting" (which was depicted in both the finale and the earlier Salem episode), and thus the big historical situations that Rittenhouse wants to change, would probably still happen in the timeline(s), although perhaps with different people pushing them forward, rather than the original people Rittenhouse "took out".

I think Rittenhouse needs to be explained a bit more - they seem a rather vague group, with their family bloodlines, etc. Surely there's more folks from the original Rittenhouse line than just Lucy and her relatives.
For that matter, are there higher ups in the organization above Emma and her "new" ally, Jessica? It would be more realistic that Carol and Nicholas were just part of the Rittenhouse machine, not the only big shots.

[timetobegin]

Both great episodes, and i'm hoping we'll get a third season because i think by reducing rittenhouse do just Emma and maybe Jessica would be really fun.

Would have liked to have Rufus NOT die though